The band that sings about having too much time on its hands has been using it wisely in recent years. Circling From Above, out Friday (July 18), is Styx‘s 18th studio album and third in seven years.

What’s driving the group’s output? “Well, we’re always writing,” singer-guitarist Tommy Shaw, Styx’s most prolific composer (alongside former member Dennis DeYoung), tells Billboard during the group’s current Brotherhood of Rock Tour with the Kevin Cronin Band and former Eagles guitarist Don Felder. There’s also a strong partnership with Will Evankovich, who produced 2017’s The Mission, 2021’s Crash of the Crown and this year’s Circling From Above (he became a full-fledged member of the band in 2021).

“Will and I live close to each other (in Nashville),” Shaw continues, “so we get together a lot and co-write things. But the other guys are great co-writers, too; we’ll get together at my house or at Will’s studio and we’ll start cobbling these pieces together…. Somehow, luckily, we’ve always been able to bring these songs and pieces together and tell a story, and that’s the best thing.”

The California-born Evankovich, who first worked with Shaw on his mid-90s Shaw Blades project with Night Ranger’s Jack Blades, adds that all of the Styx albums he’s been involved with “basically happen organically. There’s stuff Tommy and I were writing at first, and then involving Lawrence (Gowan, singer/keyboardist), they just took off on its own. It wasn’t premeditated. Tommy’s always writing; he’s a very creative guy, and I think finding a new writing partner galvanized his interest. But we do it because we want to do it, not because of how many records we’re gonna sell.”

While there were certainly thematic threads within The Mission and Crash of the Crown, both Shaw and Evankovich are quick to downplay any notions of Circling From Above as a concept album. “No, we’re not trying to make a concept album,” Shaw explains. “We’re just trying to stay on the same track. That’s what interests us, to make it interesting to the person listening to it and tying it all together like that. I think that’s fun.”

Circling From Above does start from a specific idea, however. Shaw — whose avid interest in birds helped put a European starling on the album cover — says the Pink Floyd-esque title track, which slides into the equally proggy first single “Build and Destroy,” was inspired by a continuing interest in outer space. “There’s an app I discovered a while back where you can look up and see all the space junk,” he says. “It blew my mind that all this stuff is floating around up there. Every piece of equipment that’s up there, that’s basically junk, is owned by a country and that country knows where it is and is responsible for it. It’s organized chaos, but it’s a junkyard up there. As we discussed it in the studio we were getting ready to write songs, and that influenced some of the lyrics and ideas kept popping off and we had those two songs that go together.”

Evankovich says the other 11 tracks on Circling From Above are not as interdependent. “Pretty much after that (the album) is its own animal,” he explains. “It becomes like a Beatles’ Rubber Soul, where every song’s a little different.” But, as producer, he sought to create a sonic unity in applying elements of what can be considered classic Styx, helping the band sound more like its rock radio-dominating ‘70s and ‘80s era than it had for a number of years.

“The recipe has always been big harmonies, these car horn-stacked vocals, and the great synthesizers and guitars, and we still adhere pretty much to that recipe,” Evankovich says of the band, which has placed 23 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 (including eight top 10s and one No. 1) over the course of its career. “None of it is premeditated; it just kind of falls into the Styx universe by virtue of the fact you have James Young and Chuck Panozzo (co-founders) and Tommy Shaw in addition to the new guard, which is Gowan, Todd Sucherman (drums) Terry (Gowan, bass) and myself.

“When they took that hiatus from Cyclorama, the record industry was in a state of flux and things were a little confusing about selling new music, especially if you’re a vintage band. So these (recent albums) have kind of merged the two; we’re at an age now where the attention span is pretty quick, so we try to compact all the greatness that we can into three- or four-minute songs rather than do those longer, stretched-out songs — which I love, by the way. But this is the mantra now.”

Shaw and Evankovich say Circling From Above is definitely a full-band project — even more than Crash of the Crown, which was conceived and finished during Covid. “When JY plays, you know who it is,” Shaw notes. “Will knows JY (James Young) very well and he knows JY’s style of playing and the types of things that we depend on JY to put into a song, because they’re signature things.” Young makes his mark in particular on the fluid solo for the bouncy, theatrical “King of Love.”

“What’s great is we’re always thinking of each other,” Evankovich says. “We have in our minds that, ‘This is gonna be a great JY guitar solo, this is definitely his vibe,’ or ‘This is a great Tommy spot.’ The song will tell you who we should we feature, and we all want to lift each other up.” Terry Gowan, who had been playing with his brother before being tapped to replace Ricky Phillips after his departure in 2024, added upright bass to the mix on “Blue Eyed Raven” (with Shaw on mandolin) while Panozzo played on the short interlude track “Ease Your Mind.”

With Styx playing 1977’s triple-platinum The Grand Illusion in its entirety this summer, the group has only been able to work “Build and Destroy” into its live set to date. But it’s looking forward to adding more of the Circling From Above songs into dates later this year, including the Rockin’ in Paradise Cruise during October. “We’ll definitely get to that as soon as August is over,” Evankovich says. “People come to see the great catalog of music the band has, but I think by September we’ll probably work a few new ones in there, probably two or three once we’ve cycled the Grand Illusion album.”

While Circling From Above is just out, the idea of another album is not far from the Styx members’ minds. “It’ll just take an amassing of songs, like it did for The Mission and for Crash of the Crown and for this album,” Evankovich says. “Once there’s three or four and we’ve got a thread going, then we start. It takes a few years because we’re playing 100 shows a year and away from home about 170 days out of the year, so finding the time is always challenging. But it always seems to happen, and I’m confident it probably will again.”

In the world of KPop Demon Hunters, K-pop is a battleground for hearts, minds and souls. And for superpowered girl group HUNTR/X, who face off against their demon rivals Saja Boys, they mostly fight with really good pop songs.

To bring this soundtrack — from the fizzy confection “Soda Pop” to fierce girl crush anthem “Takedown” — to life, it took a village of real K-pop hitmakers: musicians from THEBLACKLABEL, founded by BLACKPINK producer Teddy Park, crafted beats, while the songwriting credits are filled top-to-bottom with names that K-pop fans will recognize. 

“In film musicals, you are often hiring people who specialize in narrative writing,” executive music producer Ian Eisendrath, known for his work on film and Broadway musicals, tells Billboard. “This was interesting because it was sort of the opposite. It was bringing in people from the pop world to write for the film, as opposed to people from the film world to write in the style of K-pop.”

In this fictional universe, both the demon slayers and baddie boyband dominate the charts (even leaving TWICE, who cameo on the soundtrack, in their dust) — so the music ideally had to stand alone as crowd-pleasing pop songs. Maybe that’s why, in our world, too, the two groups have been going up, up, up: the album has risen to No. 2 on the Billboard 200, while HUNTR/X and Saja Boys have flown past IRL peers on the Spotify charts. 

So, how did they fit these specific story beats inside universal pop songs? Korean-American songwriter and vocalist EJAE (who provides the singing voice of Rumi) helped thread that needle on “How It’s Done,” “Golden” and “Your Idol.” “We can all relate to characters, whether they’re superheroes or not,” she says — though she has more in common with the leading HUNTR/X ladies than most. A former K-pop trainee of almost a decade, EJAE, like half-demon Rumi, knows “how it feels having to hide your insecurities.”

“‘Golden’ is a song that I put all my experience into, what I wanted to hear when I was training, because it’s not an easy industry,” she continues. “It’s very competitive. Being perfect is such a big thing while training. So that part, feeling so broken inside, me not aligning and getting dropped, was part of it too. I brought that heartbreak I felt into the lyrics and when I’m singing.”

As with her previous work for some of K-pop’s biggest girl groups (Red Velvet, aespa, NMIXX), songwriting was a team effort; EJAE bounced lyrics back and forth with Mark Sonnenblick, a composer with a background in narrative songwriting. But, whereas many of the writers on the project were used to cranking out demos in fast-paced environments like K-pop songwriting camps, this process was far more iterative — some songs took years to finalize.

“There were a lot of revisions that we wouldn’t typically make for a human artist,” says Stephen Kirk, who is known for producing BTS chart-toppers “Butter” and “Permission to Dance” alongside partner Jenna Andrews. Soaring ballad “Free” came easily for the duo — but the emotional thrust of finale “What It Sounds Like” was harder to nail down. “That was a totally different adventure,” Andrews says. “I think I counted 147 different revisions,” adds Kirk.

An early reference was Lorde’s “Green Light,” though Kirk and Andrews’ first draft, which headed “super in the direction” of the 2017 Melodrama single, was handily rejected by the studio. “They were like, ‘No, definitely not,’” Kirk laughs. But building off of existing K-pop bangers allowed the global squad to “get on the same page,” Eisendrath says. “We wanted them to do their version, but it helped us, even across language barriers, really communicate what we were going for.”

Below, Eisendrath tells Billboard how he got KPop Demon Hunter’s “stable” of talent to speak the same musical language — and create the year’s biggest K-pop hits in the process. 

How familiar were you with K-pop before working on KPop Demon Hunters?

When BTS came on the scene is when I got into K-pop. I was just sort of immediately struck by the theatricality of it. I feel like K-pop, like a Broadway musical or a film score, has so much going on, so many layers, and there’s such energy and drama to it. I’d always thought it would be amazing to somehow utilize this musical language for narrative function. I just also think K-pop is so well-produced. Everything about the music production to the mix and the mastering — I’ve always been incredibly impressed and excited about that aesthetic.

How did you get brought on to the project?

[President of Sony Pictures Music Group] Spring Aspers called me in fall of ‘22 and said, “We have this incredible new film, early days, it’s going to be a K-pop, music-driven project. THEBLACKLABEL is on board to write songs, but they’re going to need a lot of support in terms of how to make these songs filmic. Also, the directors and producer really need someone to develop musical language, and to figure out how to fit the songs into the narrative.’” So nothing really existed at that point.

I read that while the film was in development, certain songs were temped in. Were those existing K-pop songs?

A lot of it was real K-pop songs. Maggie Kang, one of our directors, grew up steeped in K-pop. That was such a gift for this process because, not only is she a great filmmaker, but she came to it as an absolute lover of this genre of music. So it was really fun to work with her, Chris [Appelhans] and Michelle Wong, our producer, to develop references for every song. We would often have five to 10 references for every song. Sometimes it was, “Hey, check out this group. We really love the drums, the groove here. We love the production colors here.”

I do think, when working with writers outside of film, and from the music industry, references are the absolute clearest way for us all to get on the same page. And what was great was that no one went and just did the reference. We didn’t want that.

Tell me about that team of writers.

We had six to seven writers that we could task with different songs, some even with sections of songs, different elements. Some people wrote the topline and lyrics. Others created music production. We even brought in someone who specialized in more of a theater narrative lyric. Working with all those writers, I think, is what made this have this crazy alchemy. The number of writers on this film definitely exceeds the number of songwriters on most film musical projects — often it’s two people or one person. 

We had the whole team at THEBLACKLABEL, including Teddy [Park], 24, Soulscape, Danny Chung. We had EJAE, who, early on, created the demos and helped us find the sound of HUNTR/X and she ended up writing top line and lyrics for a lot of songs. We had Steven Kirk and Jenna Andrews of [BTS’] “Butter” and “Dynamite” fame, who wrote two of the songs. Lindgren wrote “Takedown,” and then Mark Sonnenblick we brought in to collaborate on lyrics focusing on story and character. We also used people top of the field in K-pop to mix and master the songs.

How would you describe the sound THEBLACKLABEL brought to the soundtrack? When I listened to “How It’s Done” for the first time, I could immediately hear Teddy Park in the production.

It’s totally a THEBLACKLABEL drop, right? It has the hard-hitting beat. It has this incredible synth lead line. We wanted to have a drop like that for “How It’s Done.” THEBLACKLABEL has that all over their work — it’s in BLACKPINK and other songs all the time. We wanted to make sure HUNTR/X had that, so we created space. That might not happen in a normal narrative song, where all they say [on the chorus] is “how it’s done, done, done.” But that’s a THEBLACKLABEL signature. There are definitely BLACKPINK vibes in the score, though I also feel like they did their own thing for us.

How was this process different for the songwriters who are used to K-pop songwriting camps?

We spent about three years working on these songs. The first year was spent beating out what these songs needed to be, for story, for character, for music, vibe and how that all fits together. Because you’re not just thinking of a song, you’re thinking of a musical arc for the whole film. So that work was going on one side, then on the other side, it was figuring out how we can all work together in the way that all of these writers work best. And it was actually a really gratifying process, because we all had to learn how to speak each other’s language. 

Because animation is able to be developed very organically, we had to just keep iterating on the songs. I know that was an experience that all the songwriters both enjoyed and became exhausted by. We didn’t stop until everyone was happy.

There’s a mix of English and Korean in the songs. Was that always the plan? Was there ever a discussion to make the songs solely in English?

It happens all the time in K-pop songs, and we all loved that. The bulk of the writers on these songs are Korean, and it was really important that we were honoring and centering the film on that culture. There was never really any blowback, and that was always the goal, like, let’s interpolate both languages as much as possible. Often, we would lean towards English on the things that, if the audience didn’t understand this, then they wouldn’t understand the film. Some stuff just sounded amazing in Korean and some stuff sounded amazing in English. [It] was sort of like, “What’s the most appealing flavor?”

How did TWICE come to be involved with the soundtrack? 

Dana [Sano, from Republic Records,] and Spring really went on a quest to figure out who our partner should be. TWICE was their first choice, and they opened up that relationship and made the collaboration possible. We were all just so thrilled that they wanted to do it. Not only are we obsessed with them as a group and their music, but they’re also just so in the center of K-pop right now. It felt authenticating when they wanted to be part of this. Like, “Phew, we are creating songs that these K-pop groups feel are K-pop songs they want to perform.”

There’s a moment in the film where the Saja Boys are introduced and EXO’s “Love Me Right” plays. Then there’s this great K-drama spoof moment with “Love, Maybe” by MeloMance, originally from the Business Proposal soundtrack.

Maggie and Chris wanted something everybody knew — the EXO — when the Saja Boys appeared, then to go to that K-drama easter egg moment where they fall in love. That was in the film before I worked on it. There are those things that are evergreen, that never go away because you just can’t imagine them not being there. 

I was very nervous about that, though. Chris and Maggie remember, I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if we should do that, because we can’t steal away from whatever the Saja Boys sing.” Looking back, I think it was just real fear. Like, how are you going to beat the EXO song? But I do feel the three work well and the first two build to “Soda Pop” in such a satisfying way.

The response to this film has been incredible. Were you surprised to see the music take off on the charts? 

Totally. I’ve loved these songs, and I think all the people who worked on them have loved them, but you just never know how something’s going to do. I’ve worked on films I thought were going to be mega hits and they weren’t, and others that I thought weren’t going to be and were. It’s so thrilling that people are hearing the songs in two ways. Some are loving the film, and the film is making the songs hits, and then some people are just encountering the songs, and the songs are making the film hit.

Why do you think it’s connecting with audiences so well?

On one hand, people who love and know K-pop are loving these songs because they are new K-pop songs, right? I think they’re also responding visually to the film and feeling like, “Yeah, I’ve been to a concert like that. Yes, I know a girl group like that. I know a K-pop idol like that.” They know this world, and it’s feeling authentic and true to them.

And then I think there are a ton of people who probably wouldn’t have encountered K-pop had they not seen the film, and they are so drawn to the story and the characters. The film impacts them on an emotional level, whether it’s excitement, or deep ache, or being moved at the end when Rumi finally finds her voice.

Netflix is planning to submit “Golden” for Oscars consideration. How does that make you feel?

That’s really gratifying because, out of any song in the film, that one had the most [options] written for that spot. It took a long, long time to find. It was literally the last song that we locked up, [we were] creating a new bridge for it in December and recording in January. What I’m excited about is that it’s doing it all. It’s a K-pop song, it’s a performance song, and then it’s got an internal monologue in the middle of it all. And people are just loving and embracing it as a pop song.

Beat the summer heat with some cool new jams from your favorite queer artists! Billboard Pride is proud to present the latest edition of Queer Jams of the Week, our roundup of some of the best new music releases from LGBTQ+ artists.

From King Princess’ bold kiss-off anthem to Reneé Rapp’s diatribe against DL relationships, check out some of our favorite tracks from this week below:

King Princess, “Cry, Cry, Cry”

As Bob the Drag Queen once famously told Derrick Berry on RuPaul’s Drag Race: “If I wanted to hurt you, you’d be crying right now, b—h.” That’s the energy King Princess comes with on her stellar new single “Cry, Cry, Cry.” Throughout the shimmering pop-rock single, the singer Mikaela Straus takes aim at a former friend she ditched after a bitter betrayal. As a result, the singer delivers a series of cutting jabs, accusing her old confidant of stabbing her in the back and not being able to live with the consequences. It’s raw, it’s moody, and it’s the kind of high caliber song we’ve come to expect from KP.

Reneé Rapp, “Why Is She Still Here?”

Staying friends with your ex can be tricky — especially when it’s clear that you’re both still in love with one another. Reneé Rapp finds herself caught up in that exact sexual dynamic on “Why Is She Still Here,” her gorgeous new R&B track off her forthcoming sophomore album Bite Me. Over a silk-smooth bassline, Rapp croons about a lover still hung up on their ex, demanding to be treated better with every effortles flip into her stunning head voice. Her lyrics remain top-shelf, as Rapp goes for the jugular throughout the song: “God forbid I draw the attention to questions you never answer,” she spits. “Well, except for ‘Who’s f–king you better?’”

Blood Orange feat. Caroline Polachek, Lorde & Mustafa, “Mind Loaded”

It’s no wonder that as one of the most sought-after producers in modern pop music, Dev Hynes (known onstage as Blood Orange) is pulling out collaborations with stars like Caroline Polachek, Lorde and Mustafa for his own solo project. His latest single “Mind Loaded” sees Hynes teaming up with all three artists for a mournful rumination on grief, as Hynes narrates his own state of mind after experiencing a heavy loss. Once his guests join him to create intricate, stunning harmonies over the song’s chorus, “Mind Loaded” quickly becomes a standout in Hynes’ already-stacked discography.

The Last Dinner Party, “This Is the Killer Speaking”

If there’s one thing a band like The Last Dinner Party loves, it’s melodrama — and their newest single is soaked with histrionics down to its core. “This Is the Killer Speaking,” the first track off the band’s forthcoming sophomore album From the Pyre, sees the quintet taking a story as simple as being ghosted, and spinning it out into a mythical, fantastical western. From the production to the songwriting to the vocal performances themselves, the entirety of “This Is the Killer Speaking” plays out as a heightened piece of theatricality that you simply must hear to believe.

Fletcher, Would You Still Love Me If You Really Knew Me?

When she released the single “Boy” off of her new album, Fletcher created a firestorm online — the beloved queer pop singer telling her fans that she was in love with a man and knowing that she’s “scared to think of what you’ll think of me.” Online anger aside, that feeling suffuses the rest of Would You Still Love Me If You Really Knew Me?, Fletcher’s deeply introspective, often discomforting new album that sees the singer asking herself some of the hardest questions of her career. Whether she’s comparing herself to other pop stars (“Hi, Everyone Leave Please”), reconciling with her past decisions (“Chaos”) or just asking her audience for a little space (“D i s t a n c e”), Fletcher spends Would You Still Love Me taking every intrusive thought and pouring it out in front of her listeners, waiting to hear what they think.

Rainbow Kitten Surprise, “Dang”

There’s just something about “Dang,” the latest song from rock band Rainbow Kitten Surprise, that demands to be blasted out of the nearest speaker on a hot summer day. Throughout this gleaming new single, frontwoman Ela Melo pens a heartfelt love letter to RKS’ fans, while the stunning music video offers up a Nick & Norah’s Infinite Playlist-esque rom-com playing out to the sound of this joyous new song.

Check out all of our picks on Billboard’s Queer Jams of the Week playlist below:

Ovrkast. is the future.

The young Oakland rapper and producer built a core fanbase organically by utilizing social media and Discord early on in his career and had millions of listeners before labels started knocking on his door.

He got early cosigns from the likes of Earl Sweatshirt and superproducer Cardo who he happens to already have a collab tape with, and impressed fellow Oakland native Sway when he held his own during a freestyle session with Lupe Fiasco. Oh, and he also produced two songs for Drake in “Red Button” and “The Shoe Fits.”

On May 30, he dropped his sophomore album While the Iron Is Hot which made multiple Best Albums of the Year, So Far lists, including ours. It’s a concept album that encapsulates where he’s currently at in his young career with a name that’s bubbling in both rapper and producer circles. He’s now looking towards what’s next as he tries to navigate his newfound notoriety.

We sat down with him to talk about a variety of topics ranging from his days teaching kids how to make beats at Oakland Tech High School to the meaning behind the character Lil Tanner that he played in his music video “I’m On.”

Check out our conversation with July’s Hip-Hop Rookie of the Month, Ovrkast., below

The first time I heard your music I couldn’t really tell where you were from and I was surprised that you’re from Oakland. And then when you talk – Sway kind’ve alluded to this when you were on there – you don’t have that prominent Bay accent, maybe that has to do with growing up with the Internet. Regional slang isn’t really a thing like it was in the past.

My dad is from Arkansas. My mom is from California but her family is from somewhere else. And then also, lit’s more of a thing where the accent might come out when I’m with my people. During interviews I’m trying to be clear.

You might sound like Too $hort when you’re around the fellas?

Growing up and having so many different people not from California around me, you know, from the south, that had an impact. And also just being on the Internet broadening my horizons and talking to people from different cultures. Like when I’m rapping? I’m trying to be clear, I’m trying to say things in a certain manner, so that kinda changes it.

How was that experience with Sway? I’d imagine he’s a major figure for you guys.

It was crazy, definitely a full circle moment. I grew up watching Sway with Chance the Rapper, Sway with Pro Era, Sway with Future. I knew Sway was from Oakland, but that’s not where I got the association. I got it from seeing him with these rappers going on his show. Like yeah, I’m from Oakland. But it also speaks to Sway. Sway is from Oakland, but he also stepped out and did some other s—t.

Yeah, I mean, he just seemed so proud. He was talking to your manager about a burrito spot. Sway was like, “We got somebody from the town on here today.”

[Laughs.] He genuinely didn’t know.

And the Lupe Fiasco comes in and you go toe to toe with him. He was going off top, freestyling and sh—t. I was kind of surprised by that.

That was so random. That was not planned. That was the most hip-hop s—t you could experience.

And Lupe teaches hip-hop at MIT and you also teach, right?

Yeah, before I moved to New York, I was teaching beats at Oakland Tech.

When your mentor Mr. Holiday taught you how to make beats, was he the music teacher?

He was an after school teacher. Well, I guess you can say he was a music teacher because he also made beats. We did activities and he was kind’ve like, “Whoever wants to make beats, come.” And I was the only kid that wanted to make beats. It wasn’t like a music program or anything like that.

Oh, okay. It was a something to keep you guys busy and out of trouble.

[Laughs.] On God.

Were you already curious about producing?

I was already into the beat scene, but I really didn’t know where to go. He was like, “This is what you do.” I didn’t know FL Studio, I didn’t know anything. The closest I did was tried to record a rap on Travis Scott’s “Uptown” beat on my computer and it sounded terrible. I didn’t know how to do any of that s—t yet.

Okay, so you started rapping before you started doing beats? Like, what’s that about? I seen you on Bootleg Kev making a beat while rapping. That’s not even like chewing gum and walking, that’s some other s—t.

[Laughs.] I was writing raps. I think everybody tries to rap at first; it was just something I was doing. I knew when Igot older that I was gonna try to do this for real, but beats were the gateway to understanding music.

What’s your process like? Do you find a sample and build around it? What’s your approach like?

For the last album, I had a lot of friends who would send me a pack of samples that they made every month. And so, like, Angelo Leroy and Fly Williams sent me packs.

How was that experience teaching at Oakland tech? Were you a good teacher?

I was a good teacher, I had fun, but it’s teenagers, bro. I remember I told them I got the Drake placement and half the class didn’t give a f—k. You gotta really connect. I had to really sit down and get to know them, tell them the about the industry, be like a real person first. You gotta be cool with them.

Like how Mr. Holiday did with you.

Literally, yeah, exactly. I remember I would pull up during eighth period and like their faces would be like, “Oh, s—t he’s here. Let’s get the f—k outta here.” They’d be so happy to see me, so they can go to do whatever they wanted to do.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you give me the vibe like you was probably mad quiet back then when you started making beats with Mr. Holiday. You said in a previous interview that you always had your headphones on and you’re already just a reserved person.

Oh, hell yeah, definitely. He had to stop me while I was walking me like, “You wanna make beats?” It was that sort of thing but it was definitely cool having somebody I could trust who I could go to and be like, “Yo what do you think about this?”

Do you still share your stuff with him?

I just saw him last week. I went to his crib. We chopped it up.

So, you better at making beats than he is?

[Laughs.] Nah, that’s my OG. He the GOAT. He put me on.

The student passing up the teacher, man, that’s how it happens, bro.

He’s really proud, though, and happy. I smoked weed with him for the first time recently.

That’s like smoking with your uncle for the first time.

Yeah, yeah. I’m trying to have him tour management because he does that kind of sh—t too.

What I’ve found interesting is that you don’t produce every single beat on your projects. When KastGotWings dropped, I assumed Cardo provided all of them and then on While the Iron Is Hot, not every beat is yours. How do you allow yourself to work with other producers?

I’m very picky, for sure. It gotta make sense. Me and Vayda made a song, right? And she makes beats, so I came in and laid the sample down. She just killed it. She laid the drums down, 808s. It was cool, that was the formula. Sometimes people send me samples and I’ll flip them. Whatever feels the best is what I do.

Did you go into this most recent project thinking that you were gonna produce everything?

Yeah, I did, but I’m also open. If I hear something fire then I’m going to pick that.

What comes easier to you? Making beats or writing rhymes?

Making beats. I think writing is a challenge. You want to do better than you did the last time and you try to one up yourself. But I’ve learned with writing to just let go, like, let go of trying to be perfect. It’s better to just say the thing because I’ve been trying to get into my storytelling bag and with that, it kind of hurts the story when you’re saying too much s—t. It’s easier to just say this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened. I’m trying to train myself to just be easy with writing and not be so harsh on myself.

I guess with making a beat it’s more of like a vibe.

Yeah, it’s how you feel. It’s like fun like painting. There’s no hurry.

You’ve mentioned before that you’re a visual person, like you’ll be watching something and wonder what it would sound like if you added a beat to it. Pharrell and Ye have talked about being able to see beats. Does this also happen to you?

Oh, yeah, I do. It’s crazy. It’s called synesthesia, but for it’s not colorful. I see shapes and lights. Like if I hear an 808 it’s like a giant force of energy. I don’t know, I’ve had it since I was a kid.

How would you describe the type of rap that you do?

I guess this is a phrase I’ve been using a lot and it’s cerebral. You gotta think a little bit.

Who was inspiring you before you dropped your debut project Try Again in 2020?

I was listening to the homies a lot around that time like Mike, Mavi, Navy and Earl. It was refreshing because nobody was doing it. It felt new to me. I kind of felt like how the fans felt where it’s like, “Man, this just feels like the future.” I was also getting deep into like Erykah Badu and things like Dilla.

So, you got the Drake placement because Yachty hit you up. Who put him on? You said, Earl?

He was playing that song I made for Earl and he randomly DM’d me like, “Aye, I need one of these.” So, I sent him a pack of those motherf—kers.

When did you know that Drake picked your beats?

Two years after Yachty reached out. He hit me up again and told me Drake picked these. This was like maybe two weeks before they came out.

How did you feel actually hearing the tracks?

I heard it with a bunch of people around. It was crazy. It was like… it was a lot. It’s kind of surreal, you know? You never think that that’s gonna happen. The biggest artist in the world is on my beat right now, it’s crazy as f—k.

Do you plan on producing more for other rappers in the future? You don’t have any issues with that?

No, definitely not. I feel like producers, our role is to set the landscape. We’re like a blank page, and the rapper do they thing.

Did you learn anything from that process?

Yeah, points, publishing, and all that. They took care of me. I also learned to just keep cooking because you never know who gonna reach out or what’s the f—k is gonna happen. Check those DMs, man.

Were labels lining up to try to sign you after you had built this community yourself?

I dropped my first album. It did some numbers, but, you know, I think people are so sensationalized with numbers that kind of are like, “Well, if the numbers aren’t in the five million range.” Labels were talking to me but nothing really serious. And then I did a distro deal with Genius, but no money, just straight marketing. So they were kind of just promoting me and sh—t. Then from there my biggest song, “TBH!,” went crazy. Now from there, I’m having real conversations about music and labels signing, and then the Drake s—t happened. People just want more.

It’s never enough, you know? You’ll never have enough numbers. So, when the Drake s—t happened and they were like, “Okay, what do you want now?” So, I signed my first deal and had to play that game of having expectations now and stuff like that. A label deal is a partnership, like you’re partnering with these people. They give me money, so you have to meet halfway. I had to figure out how to maneuver in that world.. But now, I know my capabilities and what I can do.

How do you thing you’ve grown since Try Again?

I mean, everything really. Try Again wasn’t a concept album. It was like an assortment of songs that I kind of just strung together and I made it to album, which was cool. But While the Iron Is Hot is like an actual concept, there’s a theme behind it, it feels the same throughout the whole album. Try Again was my first attempt at doing that. This is way more intentional. It was way more like me setting the tone for myself.

So, what’s next? Like you said, everybody wants more. Have you already started thinking about the next project?

What’s crazy is I’ve already been thinking of the next project. I’ve been sowing seeds and ideas and songs before this last one came out. I’m trying to think four projects ahead.

You’re on now. It’s time to show and prove. You mentioned that Tyler, The Creator is your favorite artist. Have you talked to him?

Nah, not Tyler, but I got some more s—t coming with Vince Staples.

Did you guys start working after “Strange Ways” happened?

I was sending him beats and that’s how we got connected. And then “Strange Ways” happened. I’m supposed to tap in with Joey Bada$$ to see what he got going on, give him some beats.

Are you gonna do a whole project for Vince?

Not a whole project, but I got some s—t for him.

You should talk them into it. I think that could be something crazy.

I think I’m going to a project with somebody, I just don’t know with who yet. I think once I get like two or three more in of my s—ts, I’m gonna pivot to just doing the albums with n—as.

And you’re a big Pro Era fan, right? What was it like about Pro Era and Odd Future that drew you to them? Because you’re so different from what they were doing.

Just young n—a energy. They were young, it was new. I took pieces of what they loved like MF DOOM, Madlib. What they f—ked with, I came to f—k with and became inspired too. Just that whole era that they revamped and now I’m kind of in that shoot which is crazy.

You’re also a big fan of Travis Scott. What is it about his music that you like?

The world building. There are a few artists that I’m super fans of. I’m a Travis superfan. He’s forward-thinking, and boundary-pushing. The Rodeo album with the doll. It’s so encompassing. It’s so fun to just be involved in that s—t. And that’s kind of how I want to take my career, you know? N—as was like, “Oh man, Samara Cyn smoked you.” And I’m like, “Bro, I don’t give a f—k.” This is my s—t, though. I made the song. You’re coming into my world to hear her go crazy. I want it to be at a point where if I put an album out and the features is crazy, you come in to see what I did. N—as be so obsessed with the fact that I made the features stand out. They have to stand out.

I mean, also, people gotta understand that there aren’t too many people outrapping guys like Mavi and Vince.

These are incredible guys. Why would I ever want them to bring those guys down for anybody?

Lil Tanner in “I’m On,” was that about Ian?

The thing is, if it’s about Ian, it’s about all them n—as.

I bring that up because he’s getting killed for that XXL Freshman spoken-word freestyle.

None of the n—as gonna have ever have an easy time, like it’s not for you. And I like some of his music, but it’s like, gang, don’t overstep.

You know what it is, bro? You had mentioned that you watch Bamboozled. It kind of has that feeling to it.

Yeah, you’re putting on a costume because it’s cool.

Are you planning on going on tour anytime soon?

We planning it right now, trying to figure out, what cities work, openers, venues, you know, logistics.